Scott Christiansen (00:07):
Kim Rosenlund, welcome to the Root3Pointers podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Kim Rosenlund (00:12):
Yeah, thanks for having me.

Scott Christiansen (00:14):
So Kim is chief growth officer at PRN. PRN operates 250+ physical therapy clinics across the country. Kim, your title, Chief Growth Officer. I think it’s fair to say, correct me if I’m wrong, but for the majority of our careers, growth has really meant acquisitions, de novos.

Kim Rosenlund (00:37):
Yeah, more like the development side of … Yeah.

Scott Christiansen (00:40):
But one of your primary focuses, maybe your most important primary focus right now is the people to staff those-

Kim Rosenlund (00:51):
Yes, retention.

Scott Christiansen (00:52):
Those clinics. Yeah.

Kim Rosenlund (00:53):
So in healthcare in general, since COVID, we’ve seen the burn rate skyrocket in healthcare. So nursing, physical therapy. So retention’s been really difficult for us and people don’t want to work for companies that they don’t feel supported, they don’t have the resources to do their job. They’ve got managers who are difficult to work for. So we’ve spent a lot of time in the last couple years trying to figure out that secret sauce on how to keep people here and not only keep people here, but keep people motivated to want to work hard. So I think that’s-

Scott Christiansen (01:44):
Your service industry, not just expertise, but-

Kim Rosenlund (01:47):
Right. And I always say with service, it’s like our product is our people. We’re not selling a widget. It’s the service. So if the people are happy, they’re going to provide great treatment for our patients. Our patients are happy, our referral sources are happy. So it’s been interesting. And I think too, you hear a lot about generations and they’re motivated differently. And I really think the culture has really changed where money’s important, but it’s more value alignment is I think really the number one thing. Does this company’s values align with mine? Does my leader’s values align with mine? And people are like, “Hey, if those values don’t align, I’m out. I’ll go find another place where they do align and I’ll take less money for it. I’ll have a longer commute for it.” So I think that’s one thing that companies underestimate that you can’t just throw more money at people.

Scott Christiansen (03:01):
You still as a business, there’s got to be some sort of math. I need this PT to see this many patients per day for what we get reimbursed for us to be able to be a profitable business and to be able to employ anybody. So how do you balance that?

Kim Rosenlund (03:18):
And that has led to a lot of tough conversations because productivity is number one. You have to be productive. You have to meet these KPIs. You don’t. None of us have jobs, but you’re also trying to provide a service that’s very important. You’re trying to juggle the morality of, hey, these people are in pain. They’re trying to get back to living their life in a way that they can do the things that they love. So you can’t just see as many patients as you possibly can to hit those productivity measures and then still provide good care. So that’s the difficult conversation. And I think what our focus has been is give the people the resources they need to do their job. And if we provide the training, we provide the incentive plans that makes sense. You’re rewarded for going above and beyond. You’re rewarded for the outcomes of the care that you’re providing. You’re rewarded for being a good clinic director or leader and retaining your staff. And I think it’s a work in progress. I’m not going to sit here and say that we’ve figured it out. Yeah, I think it’ll always be a work in progress because I think we’re learning. We’ve made mistakes. We’ve thought, “Hey, we’ll throw a bunch of money at people. ” Well, it’s the incentive plan that’s going to get people to work harder. And it’s a piece of the puzzle. So I think it’s just us being dedicated to the fact that it is complex.

Scott Christiansen (05:13):
Why don’t you just let your PTs work from home?

Kim Rosenlund (05:17):
Which that’s a strategy. I mean, there’s companies, I mean, the model, the telehealth model, your hinges, your swords, they call it the MSK model where you need PT, just click this link, download this app and you’ll do it. You can do it via telehealth or, “Hey, I’ll stay in my home and I can just have a PT come to me.” But again, I personally feel being in this industry for 25 years, people want the interaction. When you read reviews, it’s the relationship that they’ve built with their therapists. It’s the manual therapy, the touching, the hands-on that really creates the great outcomes and the great patient experience. So I think sure, yeah, you could work from home technically, but it’s not probably going to be as rewarding and fulfilling as in person.

Scott Christiansen (06:20):
Yeah. Why do you think healthcare seems to be hit so hard right now with retention or people just washing out of working in healthcare, especially-

Kim Rosenlund (06:33):
It’s a great question. Was it? I will tell you. And it’s a question I feel like people don’t ask enough. I think, and I was a clinician for a short period of time. I only worked clinically for five years. And like I said, I burnt out after five years. And the reason being is it’s long hours, you’re on your feet, you’re dealing with people in an incredible amount of pain. It’s expensive. The out- of-pocket expense, the insurance can be great or it can be terrible for people. It’s a major time commitment. I think about it, it’s almost like it’s so inconvenient. So think about healthcare servicing your car. Your car breaks down. You got to find a credible mechanic. You got to work with the insurance company. You don’t have a car, so it’s inconvenient. It’s super similar. And so I think when you’re dealing with people that are inconvenienced and in pain and it’s expensive, you’re hitting three major buckets and now you’re the answer. I mean, that’s a lot of pressure. And that’s- Well, and

Scott Christiansen (07:59):
Especially because the reason you went into it in the first place was to go home at the end of the day feeling like you helped people. A hundred

Kim Rosenlund (08:05):
Percent. So if

Scott Christiansen (08:06):
You take that away from somebody-

Kim Rosenlund (08:09):
What do you got? It’s often the emotional burnout that makes them leave. It’s like you can only have so much empathy to give. And at some point, and then your personal life too, you have empathy and emotion and you got kids, you got aging parents, there’s that part of your life too. So if you’re giving so much at work, I know that’s a lot. That’s a lot. And then you layer on these productivity expectations, that’s a lot to navigate.

Scott Christiansen (08:47):
And I’m curious to know, your company is a kind of a unique size for what you do. There’s huge megaplayers in the industry with thousands of clinics, and then there’s a whole lot with 20 or less, and you’re in this 250 zone. Yeah, right. How do you turn that into an advantage for recruiting? Because people working for you aren’t a number like they are for these huge organizations, but you probably have a lot more resources than the smaller organizations. Yeah.

Kim Rosenlund (09:19):
Yeah. We’re kind of right in the middle. And that’s really a reason why I chose to work for PRN. I did come from a bigger organization that had over 900 locations, thousands of clinicians, and I really liked the PRN model that we are a conglomerate of local brands. So I think what’s cool about physical therapy is there’s this sense of community that, and that’s one of my favorite things about it is, and that when I was a clinician, what I loved the most, is you become this sort of almost like a local bar. It’s like you’ve got return patients, you’ve got family and friends of patients, you really start to get to know the community. And when you’re one massive brand, sometimes that can be difficult to do. You don’t have as much autonomy in the community. There’s more rigid expectations for how you run your four walls. So I really like our model that we maintain local brands and we really try to focus on that community feel. And I think that impacts retention too. You don’t feel like you’re part of this giant company, you’re part of this local community brand. And then yeah, we offer more resources than say those smaller shops.

Scott Christiansen (10:51):
Cool.

Kim Rosenlund (10:52):
Yeah.

Scott Christiansen (10:53):
So what’s your 30-second pitch to a clinician?

Kim Rosenlund (10:59):
To work for PRN?

Scott Christiansen (11:01):
Yeah.

Kim Rosenlund (11:02):
I would say that’s a good question. I think I would say we’re employee first. I think what’s unique about PT, and if you did research and you looked at all the big players, I don’t want to give the secret away, but I’m going to, is-

Scott Christiansen (11:19):
We’re scooping here first on the Root3Pointer podcast.

Kim Rosenlund (11:23):
It’s secret reveal on what every PT company should do. And we talked about it earlier. I think that a lot of these companies, and when you read their mission statements, it’s in the mission statement. They’re all patient first. It’s all we put patients first, we’re here to provide our patient services. We’re here to provide the community services, which is great. Absolutely. Of course. That’s important. But it starts with the employee, which we said. You treat the employees right, they will provide the service that that patient needs and that community needs. So our philosophy at PRN is we’re employee first. And I do think it’s aspirational. We don’t always get it right. We are still working towards that goal and we’re building our business and our infrastructure to support that aspirational goal of being employee first. So that would be my pitch is, hey, if you want to be taken care of, you want to work in an environment where you feel supported, you want to have the resources to do your job at the best level you can, you want to have opportunities to grow in several different areas, not just operations or clinically. We’re going to provide that experience for you. And that’s our number one goal and why we exist as an organization. And then our hope is that if we do that for you, our patients and communities benefit.

Scott Christiansen (13:06):
That makes sense.

Kim Rosenlund (13:09):
Don’t tell anyone though!

Scott Christiansen (13:11):
No, nobody watches this. Don’t worry. Hey, okay, this is where we shift gears to, this is the Root3Pointer quiz that I always do. I’m going to shift to your most important role in life, which is volleyball coach for your daughter’s volleyball team.

Kim Rosenlund (13:32):
Okay.

Scott Christiansen (13:32):
It’s not just trivia. I actually just have some questions too. What’s the rule people misunderstand the most about volleyball that drives you crazy when you hear people yell it from the …

Kim Rosenlund (13:46):
Oh, probably the double rule. So they just changed this role. So back in the day, when I played, I’m old.

Scott Christiansen (13:55):
Back in the day.

Kim Rosenlund (13:57):
Right. When the setter sets, they used to not be able to double. So it meant that it had to be a clean contact for both hands. Well, now you can double the ball. So it can hit one hand and then the other hand and not come off clean. So it can spin, it can sit back- You can move it to a different … Right. So they just changed that rule last year. So you constantly are hearing parents scream, “Double, double.” It’s like, no, that’s not the rule anymore.

Scott Christiansen (14:29):
It’s like the balk in baseball every time a pitcher takes their foot off the rubber.

Kim Rosenlund (14:32):
Yeah. But here’s the thing, you can’t double the ball over the net. So then a girl will double the ball or a young athlete will double the ball over the net and then they’ll call it and then the parents lose their mind. “Well, you didn’t call it early!” And it’s like, well, that’s not the rule.

Scott Christiansen (14:51):
What’s the most misunderstood position on the court?

Kim Rosenlund (14:56):
I would say middle blocker.

Scott Christiansen (14:59):
Okay. Tell me. Sell me the middle blocker.

Kim Rosenlund (15:01):
Yeah. So middle blocker is-

Scott Christiansen (15:04):
Wait was that your position?

Kim Rosenlund (15:04):
No, I was an outside hitter, which that’s probably the easiest is probably … No, I’d say Libero maybe might be easiest. Liberos would get mad at me for saying that. But outside hitting’s the most fun. That’s the most fun position. But middle blocker’s the hardest and it’s kind of thankless. It’s sort of like the offensive line of football. You’re kind of this unsung hero that has to work so hard and it’s not super …

Scott Christiansen (15:37):
You get sacks, yeah.

Kim Rosenlund (15:37):
There’s big plays that are great, but there’s a lot of little thankless plays that they’re a part of that they don’t get credit for. And it’s the one position nobody wants to be. So yeah.

Scott Christiansen (15:55):
I like it. I’m learning.

Kim Rosenlund (15:56):
I would never be a middle.

Scott Christiansen (15:57):
Alright. I don’t think you’re going to get this one right. What was the original name of the game of volleyball when it was invented?

Kim Rosenlund (16:06):
Oh my goodness. I don’t know. Wasn’t it invented in the YMCA or something? Yeah. Because I know it started in America, but I don’t know. What was the original name?

Scott Christiansen (16:17):
It was supposed to be this lighter version of … Listen, I just looked on ChatGPT of soccer, but the original name of the game was Mintonet.

Kim Rosenlund (16:33):
No way.

Scott Christiansen (16:36):
Which, it’s supposed to be a lighter version of Badminton, which obviously, you watch-

Kim Rosenlund (16:42):
That make sense. I mean, it’s you use your arms instead of-

Scott Christiansen (16:47):
I don’t think there’s a sport that I can watch that displays more power than volleyball.

Kim Rosenlund (16:52):
Right? Hey, fastest growing sport out of men and women.

Scott Christiansen (16:58):
It’s crazy.

Kim Rosenlund (16:58):
It’s pretty cool. I love it.

Scott Christiansen (17:01):
Okay. These are all just questions that you have to guess about my volleyball journey.

Kim Rosenlund (17:09):
I can’t wait. I didn’t know you played volleyball.

Scott Christiansen (17:11):
No, I didn’t, but I have a volleyball journey. So I went to a very, very small school in Central Illinois. We didn’t have a football team because we didn’t have enough kids. So what was our homecoming game?

Kim Rosenlund (17:28):
Oh my goodness. Was it a volleyball match?

Scott Christiansen (17:31):
It was the girls’ volleyball team.

Kim Rosenlund (17:32):
No way.

Scott Christiansen (17:33):
Yeah.

Kim Rosenlund (17:34):
Where in Central Illinois are you from?

Scott Christiansen (17:37):
Somewhere close to Galesburg, Peoria. Not really close to either of them.

Kim Rosenlund (17:43):
Okay.

Scott Christiansen (17:43):
Just a town of 128 people. It’s-

Kim Rosenlund (17:46):
No. So one stop sign in the town kind of deal?

Scott Christiansen (17:50):
There might be a stop sign. I don’t think so.

Kim Rosenlund (17:53):
No way.

Scott Christiansen (17:54):
Yeah, there’s no commerce.

Kim Rosenlund (17:57):
And then you found your way to one of the biggest cities in the United States. That’s pretty cool.

Scott Christiansen (18:02):
There’s a reason for that.

Kim Rosenlund (18:04):
I love it. Maybe one of these days I still play in a rec league. I’m playing tonight, so can come out and play in the rec league with me.

Scott Christiansen (18:12):
I’ll come out and watch. All right.

Kim Rosenlund (18:14):
Thank you so much, Scott. This was great. Appreciate it.

Scott Christiansen (18:17):
Thanks, Kim.