Scott Christiansen (00:06):
Jeff Korzenik, thanks for joining us today here on the Root3Pointers Podcast. Jeff, we work together in a couple ways. You’re the chief economist, a major commercial bank, but your passion is all wrapped up in the book you wrote, Untapped Talent. I want to get the title, How Second Chance Hiring Works for Your Business in the Community. Jeff, we spent a lot of time talking about returning citizens, justice impacted individuals. Why are you so passionate about this?

Jeff Korzenik (00:39):
Sometimes I’m not sure why, to tell you the truth. As an economist, you want everyone who wants to be able to work to work and to be able to have as productive a career path as possible. But I think it’s much more fundamental to being a human being. And I think of my family as having second chances in the United States. My mom’s a war refugee. My father’s parents were immigrants. I want everyone to be able to live up to their potential. And if something has sent them down the wrong path to give them the second chance to thrive.

Scott Christiansen (01:16):
I should probably just be more clear too. You probably run into this people. You talk about second chance and people don’t really know. We’re talking about people who are coming out of prison or people who have a felony conviction.

Jeff Korzenik (01:26):
Or even a misdemeanor. And second chance hiring, sometimes called fair chance hiring is the intentional seeking out of people with that kind of justice impact as a talent pool.

Scott Christiansen (01:41):
Okay. I bet there’s a stereotypical reaction you get from people who have never considered this before. What is it?

Jeff Korzenik (01:50):
Some people instinctively, well, sure, why wouldn’t we? But a lot of people have a stigma. I disagree with what you’re doing. They’re bad people. People should be punished. They shouldn’t be singled out in a positive way. And I’m very pragmatic. My whole approach has been pragmatic. Roughly 95% of people in prison, for instance, which is just a subset of the people with criminal records, but 95% of the people in prison today will come out and be our neighbors. Why wouldn’t we want them to be good neighbors? And part of being a good neighbor is having a chance to get employed.

Scott Christiansen (02:31):
Right.

Jeff Korzenik (02:33):
Look, it makes us safer when people who have criminal record, been incarcerated, and for instance, it makes us safer when they have an opportunity to have careers and jobs. So why wouldn’t we selfishly want that? But people don’t draw that connection. And there is this kind of stereotypical people with criminal records are bad people. And it’s much more complex than that.

Scott Christiansen (03:02):
You talk in your role as chief economist a lot about workforce shortages, and we’re talking about 20 million people here that are marginalized. Are my numbers right?

Jeff Korzenik (03:14):
Yeah, it’s 19 million people. First of all, the data is old. There’s a data problem in this whole criminology field. But what we know from around 2010 is 19 million Americans have a felony conviction, but that’s a barrier to employment. But you add onto that tens of millions more. We don’t even know how many, but tens of millions more who have some other kind of a criminal record like a misdemeanor. And that’s a lot of people. And we need people to make the economy thrive and you need people not just to be workers, but to be able to be productive workers.

Scott Christiansen (03:50):
That’s your book over your shoulder, by the way, for people who-

Jeff Korzenik (03:53):
Shamelessly.

Scott Christiansen (03:54):
Want to know what the book looks like. Yeah, there it is. We’re not hiding it. In the book, you kind of do some case studies and you talk to employers about what’s best practices. Give me some of the tips for best practices.

Jeff Korzenik (04:08):
Sure. And while I say this is what I’ve kind of contributed. Number one, to the field, the contribution that employers should do this because it’s in their self-interests, not because of it’s a social good. Employers should do this because it’s part of how you get the best person for every job. The best practices boil down to having two processes. One, you need a way of picking which people among the population of people with criminal records are ready to be good employees because not all of them are. Again, I’m a pragmatist. Some of the people who say leave prison are going to go back to prison because they haven’t gotten their head and heart in the right place. Those aren’t going to be good employees. Some are people who could be good employees, but don’t know how, because they’ve never seen it in their families. They have multi-generational poverty, often multi-generational interaction with the justice system, and some are ready right away.

(05:08):
So it’s how do you pick who’s ready or who can be made ready? The other process that employers who do this well find out is that there are a lot of roadblocks that crop up for people with criminal records, sometimes related to the justice system, but very often just related to deep poverty. And so employers don’t have to solve these processes, but they need to understand what their workforce is going through. Food insecurity, inability to buy work appropriate clothing because they don’t have the means, housing insecurity, transportation challenges. And while the employer doesn’t have to solve for these, they have to be aware of them and ideally have a network of resources that their workforce can tap into and support them.

Scott Christiansen (05:59):
What’s the reward when it works?

Jeff Korzenik (06:03):
Sure. Reward is, and why this works as from an economic proposition is that if you find someone who is ready to turn their life around, they want to prove that they are more than their worst mistake. They want to prove it to themselves, to their families, to their community, to their employer. And that’s a recipe for a really dedicated employee, someone who really cares about their job. Moreover, they understand the obstacles. People who’ve coming out of prison, applying for jobs, it’s not uncommon to apply for more than a hundred jobs to get even a low entry level menial job. They tend to appreciate any opportunities they’re given and have a lot of loyalty. And that combination of engagement in a job and staying with the employer is a recipe for productivity, which is a recipe for profitability.

Scott Christiansen (07:00):
Yeah. And as you know, I’ve had the opportunity to see all of this firsthand in starting at the correctional facility in Kiwani, Illinois with the workforce initiatives there, local businesses, embracing and participating with opportunities for work, both while they’re transitioning out of the correctional facility. But I think the thing that really got to me the most and kind of touched me the most was the communities, the everyday people’s ability to confront their own biases and fears. And when they did that, the bonds that they formed, because they got past those fears and those biases are so strong and it’s emotional.

Jeff Korzenik (07:56):
Well, I often say that people with criminal records are very grateful for my work because I’ve helped open doors. I can point to thousands of jobs through a number of employers that have been created that were created through my research and through my book. And I was a catalyst for some great employers stepping up. So people who’ve been justice impacted tend to be very grateful for what I’ve done. But I always think I’m the winner and I think I’m the winner because I have people in my life now who have been justice impacted, who have rebuilt their lives, and they are among the most standup people in my life. So here I am in my 60s making new friends with people with completely different walks of life and they enrich my life and they stand by me and I know I can count on them as friends. That’s pretty great.

Scott Christiansen (08:52):
That’s a legacy there. And I know you’re not done.You’re just getting started. Honestly, your work here is, you would consider it in its infancy, I’m sure.

Jeff Korzenik (09:05):
Yeah, it is. I mean, there’s so much more to be done. We’ve made progress. We made progress for the reason that the labor market got really tight and employers were willing to consider, we’re more open to considering anything. We’re in a pause right now because the labor market isn’t as tight and there’s also some political environment that has been … I believe that many employers have misinterpreted signals from the administration about DEI, for instance, and think they can’t go here and do second chance hiring or can’t promote it. I am 100% sure they’re wrong.

(09:52):
And in fact, the Labor Department recently issued some tens of millions of dollars of grants to support second chance hiring and training of people with criminal records. So the administration has not focused on this. I think they missed an opportunity in the past. The past several administrations have declared April to be second chance month last April, unlike the first Trump administration last April, there was no White House proclamation. I think it was an oversight, but my hope is as the administration starts to pivot more to domestic issues, this will come back. And I think it’s worth noting that the first Trump administration led a bipartisan effort for prison reform that’s the most significant criminal justice reform done in generations. And it’s a good and was really good reform struggling in the implementation. The other thing that I think is really interesting about the administration is there are two prominent individuals I can think of who are in the administration who were incarcerated.

(10:57):
The pardon czar, Alice Marie Johnson, spent decades for a nonviolent conviction. She’s a wonderful person. I’ve met her. And then Josh Smith, who’s the Deputy Director of the Bureau of Prisons, was formerly incarcerated many decades ago. He’s a terrific businessman. I know him very slightly, and I see the business-like discipline he’s bringing to leadership in the Bureau of Prisons. And I think it’s going to have some really positive outcomes, both for the economy and for the areas where they oversee directly.

Scott Christiansen (11:45):
Yeah. And that intersection between writing the book and lobbying, talking to the politicians, that’s part of getting it done. I was recently at a ceremony that was where my dad was being honored for his work in workforce development. And what struck out to me about it is honored by the state of Illinois. So there’s state legislators there talking. There’s head of the Department of Education, the Department of Labor was there and talking. The third person who talked was a gentleman who was released from prison after 20 years last year, and he’s got a stable job and he’s working in Springfield and doing very well. And so I thought that was a great mix.

Jeff Korzenik (12:37):
That is a great mix. One of the things that I really enjoy about this work is it brings so many people together, and I think it’s fundamentally about who we are as Americans. We are, and I say this with my immigrant background, we’re the land of opportunity. And during the first Trump administration, I attended two events at the White House, never met the president. I’m one of hundreds in the crowd. But at one point, the president in his speech emphasized, when we say land of opportunity, we mean land of opportunity for all. And I think that concept resonates with a lot of Americans and across party lines and a rare moment of unity, all too rare, but it is one. And I have collaborators in this space who are way to the left of me. I have collaborators in the space who are evangelical Christians who are to the right of me, but we can all agree on fundamental dignity of the individual human and the desire for people to have the opportunity to build lives of meaning and contribution.

Scott Christiansen (14:01):
Absolutely. Okay. Jeff, this is the point in the podcast. This is my ambush part of it. It’s a quiz. And I’m going to go to one of your other passions, which is theater. Yes. And there’s a short quiz on theater, and some of these are pretty easy, so you better get them. Some of them, maybe not so much. Okay. Longest running Broadway show ever.

Jeff Korzenik (14:26):
Oh, I don’t know. That’s terrible.

Scott Christiansen (14:30):
You want to say Cats, don’t you? You know you want to say

Jeff Korzenik (14:32):
I did actually. I did, but I couldn’t believe, is that still running on Broadway?

Scott Christiansen (14:36):
No, but it’s not Cats. No, I don’t think this is running anymore. It was the longest running.

Jeff Korzenik (14:42):
Well Mousetrap was forever, but that was in the West End.

Scott Christiansen (14:46):
Yeah, maybe that’s West End. On Broadway, it was Phantom of the Opera.

Jeff Korzenik (14:50):
Ah, okay. That makes sense. I saw it on Broadway. It’s terrific. I’m going to fail this quiz miserably already.

Scott Christiansen (14:57):
No, this one I found really …

Jeff Korzenik (14:59):
I’m 0-for-1.

Scott Christiansen (14:59):
Let’s go. Okay. When you hear the question, you’re going to go, “Oh, I knew that.” Of the 40+s Broadway theaters, and they’re not all about Broadway, by the way, of the 40+ Broadway theaters, how many of them are on Broadway?

Jeff Korzenik (15:14):
Oh, boy. I would say it’s a low number. It’s like three or something like that.

Scott Christiansen (15:24):
Yeah, it’s four.

Jeff Korzenik (15:25):
Four, yeah.

Scott Christiansen (15:26):
Isn’t that funny? How does that happen?

Jeff Korzenik (15:28):
Well, I did that by going down memory lane of commuting between Port Authority and Midtown.

Scott Christiansen (15:36):
That’s impressive.

Jeff Korzenik (15:37):
And looking at Midtown, and I came up with three that I could think of. So I was close.

Scott Christiansen (15:43):
No, I’m going to give you that one. I’m going to give you that one.

Jeff Korzenik (15:45):
1-for-1.

Scott Christiansen (15:45):
I’m not going to give you the one where you said West End instead of Broadway, but you’re probably right. Which production received the most Tony’s of all time? Well, yeah.

Jeff Korzenik (15:57):
Wow. I have absolutely no idea.

Scott Christiansen (16:02):
You won’t be shocked when I say Hamilton.

Jeff Korzenik (16:04):
Oh, wow. Yeah.

Scott Christiansen (16:06):
Okay. Now I’m going to go to

Jeff Korzenik (16:08):
I saw it in Chicago, not in Broadway.

Scott Christiansen (16:10):
I did too. Yeah.

Jeff Korzenik (16:11):
Yeah.

Scott Christiansen (16:14):
Which plays name cannot be uttered out loud in a theater?

Jeff Korzenik (16:18):
Oh, the Scottish play.

Scott Christiansen (16:19):
Well, you can say it you’re not in the theater. Can’t say Macbeth in the theater. There’s so many … When I was researching this, there’s so many things that are bad luck. Did you know Peacock feathers are badluck?

Jeff Korzenik (16:30):
No.

Scott Christiansen (16:31):
Because it’s got an evil eye in it.

Jeff Korzenik (16:33):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Scott Christiansen (16:35):
You can’t whistle backstage. That’s bad luck.

Jeff Korzenik (16:38):
I’ve heard that one. I’ve heard that one.

Scott Christiansen (16:39):
There’s so many things. They have the ghost light that they leave on. Yes. I know about that. I learned a lot. All right. You were just at the International Puppet Festival in Chicago.

Jeff Korzenik (16:52):
The Chicago International Puppet Festival.

Scott Christiansen (16:54):
Thumbs up?

Jeff Korzenik (16:56):
Fantastic.

Scott Christiansen (16:57):
Highly recommended?

Jeff Korzenik (16:58):
Highly recommended. And it was both gratifying dismaying. It was hard to get tickets. I mean, a lot of the shows sold out in theaters that seat 400 or 500 people. So it has gone from this kind of fringe, strange thing that geeky theater people like me found interesting to becoming mainstream as it is in Europe. Puppet theater is much more mainstream in Europe.

(17:25):
It’s time it came to the United States. I should stress for your viewers, this is not theater for children necessarily. This is serious adult theater. One of the best shows we saw was a, I want to say Norwegian theater group that did Ipsens the Dollhouse using full-size adult-sized puppets and combined with live performers. And it was fabulous. So very serious theater, well done.

Scott Christiansen (17:54):
All right. Two quizzes, two questions. What’s the origin of the word Muppet? Jim Henson didn’t like the word puppet.

Jeff Korzenik (18:04):
I used to know this. I no longer know this.

Scott Christiansen (18:07):
It’s just Marionette and puppet put together.

Jeff Korzenik (18:10):
Very good. Very good.

Scott Christiansen (18:13):
And oldest known puppet ever found in within a thousand years.

Jeff Korzenik (18:20):
Oh, I’m going to say going back to 1,000 BC or something. I mean, this is pretty ancient tradition.

Scott Christiansen (18:28):
They’re giving us 3,000 years. Wow.

Jeff Korzenik (18:34):
So that would be 1,000 BC, yes.

Scott Christiansen (18:35):
It would. I think you hit it on the head. You got high marks there. I’m going to-

Jeff Korzenik (18:42): Places like Indonesia. I mean, really rich shadow puppetry in that case, but it is … The way I try to explain it to friends who look at me quizzically when I say I’m going to a puppet theater festival is before there was CGI, computer generated, this was the way to stretch the imagination. Characters could fly. Characters could go to other planets. They could do anything and gods became real on the stage because you can do things with puppets that you can’t do with human beings.

Scott Christiansen (19:21):
Yeah. Jeff, thanks for your time today. Thanks for talking about Untapped Talent and thanks for all the work you do there.